Mass Acceptance Of Electric Cars Would Have Little Impact On US Emissions

[airdvr 210]

Quote

"In part, it's because some of the benefits of EDVs are wiped out by higher emissions from power plants. Another factor is that passenger vehicles make up a relatively small share of total emissions, limiting the potential impact of EDVs in the first place. For example, passenger vehicles make up only 20 percent of carbon dioxide emissions.

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/mass_acceptance_electric_cars_would_have_little_impact_us_emissions-128117

Still waiting for someone to explain how we'll convert all those WalMart semi's to electric.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,006]

>Still waiting for someone to explain how we'll convert all those WalMart semi's to electric.

Same way we converted all those buses to electric in San Francisco. See below.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aqmd.gov%2Ftao%2FConferencesWorkshops%2FRetreats%2F8-2013_Impullitti.pdf&ei=PuzhUqeuAdGDogT56oCICg&usg=AFQjCNG69RcpZszpo1ieMWX175gXjptgiw&sig2=Hl9wzd2wKisOuRe7ryYWCw&bvm=bv.59930103,d.cGU

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>Still waiting for someone to explain how we'll convert all those WalMart semi's to electric.

Same way we converted all those buses to electric in San Francisco. See below.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aqmd.gov%2Ftao%2FConferencesWorkshops%2FRetreats%2F8-2013_Impullitti.pdf&ei=PuzhUqeuAdGDogT56oCICg&usg=AFQjCNG69RcpZszpo1ieMWX175gXjptgiw&sig2=Hl9wzd2wKisOuRe7ryYWCw&bvm=bv.59930103,d.cGU

Hehe...what will you do at the end of the first mile? And, you sound as if this is already done. Bottom line is you can't electric your way out of this problem until you commit to nuke, solar, or wind. And we all know why we don't have more nuke power in the US. (hint: it wasn't conservatives that killed it in the 70's)

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[yoink 321]

Why do we have to solve it all at once? Surely 20% is better than 0%?


If more of the public moves to electric, maybe that indicates to the political parties that it's something they should be interested in as a policy...

Maybe legislation is then introduced to limit commercial emissions in order to win votes. Maybe then industry starts being limited and some masive differences start being made.

While it'd be great to make the biggest difference first, it's not necessarily the only way.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

airdvr

Quote

"In part, it's because some of the benefits of EDVs are wiped out by higher emissions from power plants. Another factor is that passenger vehicles make up a relatively small share of total emissions, limiting the potential impact of EDVs in the first place. For example, passenger vehicles make up only 20 percent of carbon dioxide emissions.

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/mass_acceptance_electric_cars_would_have_little_impact_us_emissions-128117

Still waiting for someone to explain how we'll convert all those WalMart semi's to electric.

In a world where we can make 416 HP electric sports sedans like the Tesla-S, 500 HP semi trucks are not out of the question.

Similarly when you're building 15,000 - 25,000 pound semi-tractors you can accommodate heavy batteries.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

"In part, it's because some of the benefits of EDVs are wiped out by higher emissions from power plants. Another factor is that passenger vehicles make up a relatively small share of total emissions, limiting the potential impact of EDVs in the first place. For example, passenger vehicles make up only 20 percent of carbon dioxide emissions.

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/mass_acceptance_electric_cars_would_have_little_impact_us_emissions-128117

i love this part:
"By News Staff" And then the citation for the actual study has no date, and just points you to the home page for NCSU. Begging the question, did they selectively quote?

In California, vehicle emissions are a very big deal. And you don't have to go very long back in history to see the problems from leaded gas, and only a decade back to see the problems from MTBE. Right now we see the fight over E85 and what it will do to older cars.

Remember also the fight for EVs isn't just about emissions, but also about oil requirements.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>Still waiting for someone to explain how we'll convert all those WalMart semi's to electric.

Same way we converted all those buses to electric in San Francisco. See below.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aqmd.gov%2Ftao%2FConferencesWorkshops%2FRetreats%2F8-2013_Impullitti.pdf&ei=PuzhUqeuAdGDogT56oCICg&usg=AFQjCNG69RcpZszpo1ieMWX175gXjptgiw&sig2=Hl9wzd2wKisOuRe7ryYWCw&bvm=bv.59930103,d.cGU

We haven't, actually. Plenty of diesel buses still in use, and troubling, the hybrid buses seem to have a much lower work level in miles per year due to much lower reliability.

[sfzombie13 324]

when you can make an electric truck that not only pulls hills like they do now, but also goes 600-700 miles on a full charge without being all battery, then you can talk about replacing them. and i did read somewhere once that airplanes emit more than vehicles. try and convert them to electric.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[DanG 1]

Quote

and i did read somewhere once that airplanes emit more than vehicles

I believe a typical airplane may emit more per passenger mile than a car, but there are a hell of a lot more cars than planes.

- Dan G

[kallend 2,027]

sfzombie13

when you can make an electric truck that not only pulls hills like they do now, but also goes 600-700 miles on a full charge without being all battery, then you can talk about replacing them. and i did read somewhere once that airplanes emit more than vehicles. try and convert them to electric.

Electric motors have excellent low speed torque. What about those electric motors on locomotives pulling 8,000 ton freight trains?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 210]

kallend

***when you can make an electric truck that not only pulls hills like they do now, but also goes 600-700 miles on a full charge without being all battery, then you can talk about replacing them. and i did read somewhere once that airplanes emit more than vehicles. try and convert them to electric.

Electric motors have excellent low speed torque. What about those electric motors on locomotives pulling 8,000 ton freight trains?

You must mean the diesel electrics...

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 2,027]

airdvr

******when you can make an electric truck that not only pulls hills like they do now, but also goes 600-700 miles on a full charge without being all battery, then you can talk about replacing them. and i did read somewhere once that airplanes emit more than vehicles. try and convert them to electric.

Electric motors have excellent low speed torque. What about those electric motors on locomotives pulling 8,000 ton freight trains?

You must mean the diesel electrics...

There is no direct connection from the diesel engine to the wheels.

The wheels are driven by electric motors, which provide the torque. The source of the electrons is immaterial to my statement.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Lots of semis are going to compressed natural gas (CNG) these days. There are tradeoffs, but much lower emissions.

If you see a tractor with a big rectangular box right behind the cab, that's a CNG truck.

http://www.cartalk.com/sites/default/files/blogs/jim-motavalli/images/Ryder%20CNG%20Tractor%20small.jpg

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 3,006]

>Hehe...what will you do at the end of the first mile?

Go on to the second (and third, and 100th) mile of electrification. Not built out that far yet? Switch to your diesel engine.

>Bottom line is you can't electric your way out of this problem until you commit to
>nuke, solar, or wind.

Agreed! You have to do both (which, fortunately, we are.)

>And we all know why we don't have more nuke power in the US.

Because people are afraid of it.

[billvon 3,006]

>We haven't, actually.

I'd say 300 buses serving 14 downtown lines is pretty good evidence that you can convert to catenary power when you want to.

[billvon 3,006]

>when you can make an electric truck that not only pulls hills like they do now

Every train in the US is powered by electric motors.

When you can make a pure diesel that can pull a two mile long train weighing twenty thousand tons up a mountain . . . then you've got something.

>but also goes 600-700 miles on a full charge without being all battery

So don't use a battery. Use a catenary. Buses in San Francisco and trains in New England have been doing that for decades.

[kallend 2,027]

billvon

>when you can make an electric truck that not only pulls hills like they do now

Every train in the US is powered by electric motors.

When you can make a pure diesel that can pull a two mile long train weighing twenty thousand tons up a mountain . . . then you've got something.

>but also goes 600-700 miles on a full charge without being all battery

So don't use a battery. Use a catenary. Buses in San Francisco and trains in New England have been doing that for decades.

Trains on some lines in the Chicago region use catenaries too. And they do all over Europe.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weekender 0]

kallend

***>when you can make an electric truck that not only pulls hills like they do now

Every train in the US is powered by electric motors.

When you can make a pure diesel that can pull a two mile long train weighing twenty thousand tons up a mountain . . . then you've got something.

>but also goes 600-700 miles on a full charge without being all battery

So don't use a battery. Use a catenary. Buses in San Francisco and trains in New England have been doing that for decades.

Trains on some lines in the Chicago region use catenaries too. And they do all over Europe.

they are common in metro area in the US because they are practical. considering the size of our nation and the amount of rail lines, i dont see how it would be practical to try to convert everything.

we might not have to. diesel electric are very efficient and get great mileage. "Trains can move a ton of freight nearly 450 miles on a single gallon of fuel." from CSX. maybe we should learn to make smaller diesel electric's for our big rigs.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

weekender

they are common in metro area in the US because they are practical. considering the size of our nation and the amount of rail lines, i dont see how it would be practical to try to convert everything.

we might not have to. diesel electric are very efficient and get great mileage. "Trains can move a ton of freight nearly 450 miles on a single gallon of fuel." from CSX. maybe we should learn to make smaller diesel electric's for our big rigs.

We really wouldn't gain anything. The big trains use the Diesel/Electric because nobody has been able to come up with a mechanical transmission that will work for something that big. The D/E is a simple, effective and efficient way.

For the "smaller" big trucks, a dry clutch and 10 (or more) forward speeds work just fine. The clutch and geared tranny weigh less than a generator and motor setup would.

And my big truck, while not quite that efficient does pretty good. I can carry 22 or 23 tons and get over 7.5 mpg, depending on wind and hills. So I'm taking a ton of freight 165 miles on one gallon of fuel. Not as good as a train, but not too bad.

MPG "per ton" is similar to "per seat" fuel consumption for the airlines.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rushmc 23]

wolfriverjoe

***

they are common in metro area in the US because they are practical. considering the size of our nation and the amount of rail lines, i dont see how it would be practical to try to convert everything.

we might not have to. diesel electric are very efficient and get great mileage. "Trains can move a ton of freight nearly 450 miles on a single gallon of fuel." from CSX. maybe we should learn to make smaller diesel electric's for our big rigs.

We really wouldn't gain anything. The big trains use the Diesel/Electric because nobody has been able to come up with a mechanical transmission that will work for something that big. The D/E is a simple, effective and efficient way.

For the "smaller" big trucks, a dry clutch and 10 (or more) forward speeds work just fine. The clutch and geared tranny weigh less than a generator and motor setup would.

And my big truck, while not quite that efficient does pretty good. I can carry 22 or 23 tons and get over 7.5 mpg, depending on wind and hills. So I'm taking a ton of freight 165 miles on one gallon of fuel. Not as good as a train, but not too bad.

MPG "per ton" is similar to "per seat" fuel consumption for the airlines.

Good info
You seem tuned into the transmission issue so I have a bit off the topic question
I here there is a similar issue with the wind turbines around where I live. For the most part, I understand, we have the biggeste two sizes Vestpa makes

First, does anyone know if this it true? and secondly
Does anyone know a horsepower figure for these beasts?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[weekender 0]

wolfriverjoe

***

they are common in metro area in the US because they are practical. considering the size of our nation and the amount of rail lines, i dont see how it would be practical to try to convert everything.

we might not have to. diesel electric are very efficient and get great mileage. "Trains can move a ton of freight nearly 450 miles on a single gallon of fuel." from CSX. maybe we should learn to make smaller diesel electric's for our big rigs.

We really wouldn't gain anything. The big trains use the Diesel/Electric because nobody has been able to come up with a mechanical transmission that will work for something that big. The D/E is a simple, effective and efficient way.

For the "smaller" big trucks, a dry clutch and 10 (or more) forward speeds work just fine. The clutch and geared tranny weigh less than a generator and motor setup would.

And my big truck, while not quite that efficient does pretty good. I can carry 22 or 23 tons and get over 7.5 mpg, depending on wind and hills. So I'm taking a ton of freight 165 miles on one gallon of fuel. Not as good as a train, but not too bad.

MPG "per ton" is similar to "per seat" fuel consumption for the airlines.

thanks for the info. i probably should just have stayed out of this since i know nothing of either trucks or trains. i do think its unrealistic to convert all our rails to electric. seems practical in metro areas but once you get into the giant distances of our nation, seems to big.

im a train guy for the record. not that it matters but im a bit Euro in that sense. use them everyday and love it. could never imagine the hell of driving to work. i live and work in the NYC area and never use a plane to go to Boston or DC like many of my buddies.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Zach 0]

sfzombie13

when you can make an electric truck that not only pulls hills like they do now, but also goes 600-700 miles on a full charge without being all battery, then you can talk about replacing them. and i did read somewhere once that airplanes emit more than vehicles. try and convert them to electric.

Read this a while back. Not electric, but progress of a sort.

http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/launching-low-carbon-fuel-with-virgin-atlantic

Zach

[champu 1]

According to their website Vestas has 2 MW, 3.3 MW, and 8 MW platforms, but the 8 MW / 164 m diameter rotor platform is for off-shore applications.

A kW is about 1.34 hp and I would wild-ass-guess the conversion efficency to be 93% so you'd be talking around 2900 hp, 4700 hp, and 11,500 hp at the shaft respectively.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>We haven't, actually.

I'd say 300 buses serving 14 downtown lines is pretty good evidence that you can convert to catenary power when you want to.

I corrected your prior statement:
"Same way we converted all those buses to electric in San Francisco."

You're now saying something rather different. And I'm pointing out the transition woes.

Frankly, diesel buses aren't the problem here. Muni buses take a ridiculous volume of people (the 38 doesn't even have standing room halfway down town) per bus. If this manufacturer can't make a reliable model, then we can wait until they can.

[kawisixer01 0]

wolfriverjoe

Lots of semis are going to compressed natural gas (CNG) these days. There are tradeoffs, but much lower emissions.

If you see a tractor with a big rectangular box right behind the cab, that's a CNG truck.

http://www.cartalk.com/sites/default/files/blogs/jim-motavalli/images/Ryder%20CNG%20Tractor%20small.jpg

Yes this is growing big time. My employer just added a CNG station at my local plant, and I believe said they are now at the largest CNG fleet in the nation. A local company (Angi Energy Systems) that manufactures CNG systems has steadily grown from a little fab shop in a farm pole barn through three different ever larger buildings in town. Heck even the newest gas station in town added a CNG station when they built it.